Connected, by mParticle Episode 7: Thinking beyond the stack with Adam Griffiths

In order to deliver a memorable customer experience, it’s not good enough to have only a best-in-class tech stack. The secret lies in how well your marketing and product teams communicate and work together. Join me in conversation with Adam Griffiths who shares his insights on helping industry leading brands break down both tech and communication silos to drive the business forward.

Visit our Connected by mParticle hub to listen to all previous episodes and subscribe on the podcast platform of your choice.

Abhi: [00:00:00] Adam, coming to us live from from Berlin, can't thank you enough for joining me on the pod.

Thank you. It's a pleasure. So Adam, I mean I got a chance to catch up with you a couple of weeks ago. But before I get ahead of myself, yeah, I, I wanna turn the floor over to you. I'd, I'd love a little intro and, you know, for the audience a bit of what you do.

Adam: Sure. So,   yeah, my name's Adan Griffiths I'm based in Berlin, but originally, , from the UK, And I've been more or less involved in technical marketing projects or product management related things for the past seven years on both the client and the agency side, I've worked across many verticals, such as eCommerce, urban mobility, FinTech, telecommunications, health, and fitness transportation.

And, , I see myself as the bridge between marketing and product. , so I primarily focus on the MarTech area [00:01:00] and,   yeah, I work with a lot of clients,   that have a specific focus around,   revenue driven,   metrics or usage base metrics like registrations or user growth. , as well as this specific goals, like launching a new app or gaining a foothold in a key target market and, all the,   technological, and process related changes that go along with, that.

Abhi: Yeah. Yeah. That's   I mean, damn, where do I, where do I go from there? I mean, this is like a, a kid in the candy. I mean, the, the, the reality is I'm and I'm sure there's, there's nuances to clients in each of those verticals. I'm sure there's a heck of a lot of commonality, too. Right. In terms of like what some of the issues are.

Um, I guess let's start there, Adam, because I, I think what I'm more interested in and, and the hypothesis, the hunch I have and, and you can tell me I'm wrong, I'd venture to bet that like, there's probably more. [00:02:00] There's more commonality in the challenges like your clients are facing across industries, across verticals, whether it's you're talking to a product team or a marketing team, I feel like there's a lot of folks that are like, they're looking at challenges and problems through different lenses and angles, but at the core of it, it's still the same.

Same sort of issue. , I guess let's start there, like, so with all the clients you've helped and worked with over the years, are there any particular, you know, common challenges that kind of come up time and time again? , you know, what are those challenges and have organizations in your experience successfully gone about tackling those issues?

Adam: Sure. Yeah, you're correct. There are a lot of commonalities. , I'd say that,   in the, the knowledge area, as well as, finding the right tools to do the right job and tool adoption, there's, two scenarios which are very common. The first is that a client has purchased a set of tools for,   the [00:03:00] app or a product.

Um, And need assistance to properly adopt these tools to reach their KPIs,   or they have a trouble understanding how they work. The second is that they have comprehensive teams, but don't have the knowledge of the tool ecosystem.   they know what they want, but not how to achieve it. , so these are two very common scenarios.

  the other is resources. So resource amongst client teams can also be an issue, develop a resource, for example, with something that always plays into it. But also,   often we see an imbalance between demands of marketing and product teams or vice versa. And this is something that I observe a lot. , so a lot of it is about developing an understanding between these two teams and how they can work together.

Um, as you can imagine, sometimes there's,   a lack of that. , so this is something that,   I like to address since we have product owners or devs that don't necessarily understand marketing team requirements and don't consider the [00:04:00] marketing side as part of their product roadmap.   they're more focused on product improvements or feature development and things like that.

And then we also have marketing teams that cannot communicate effectively with product teams. They don't know how to make that team aware of their requirements and what they need and why they need it and how it should be a part of that side of things. So these are things which,   often come up in terms of commonalities.

And then of course, given that I'm based here in Germany, I work with a lot of, DAC. Clients everyone's favorite is of course data privacy concerns, which is, a very hyper intensified topic here in Germany.   this isn't a route that I necessarily want to go down today. I think that's a whole other show, but, , I'm certain people have enough problems,   without listening to me talk about that for the next 30 minutes.

Sure, sure. This is something that in Germany is a, a very, very,   intense issue. And in terms of,   a solution or how [00:05:00] to tackle these issues, I think this is a much broader thing to discuss, but you can get a picture from the answers that I give, , how you can begin to tackle these things. So I don't wanna go too much of.

I know down the rabbit hole here, I guess, but, , yeah, these can be resolved by bringing in someone like myself or another service provider or agency. , but of course it starts with the fundamentals, proper communication, project planning, roadmap, planning, use cases, KPI setting, or KPI transformation. And, , this is where it begins and this is where you can really start to identify the issues and start tackling them and then comes the fun.

Abhi: I want to double click into something you said, which is, it's almost like, I think everyone knows at the highest level, like to make that successful product and marketing do have to effectively work together. And I think you hit on two things, really interesting points there. One from just a people side of it, right? Like [00:06:00] PM to growth marketer needs to be able to communicate effectively. Why have I done something this way in product? How does that translate to helping you with your marketing initiatives?

Um, and what's that common language we, we speak, but the tool set thing is really interesting too. And maybe we get into this a little later or, or, you know, we'll, we'll, I'm sure we'll eventually stumble into this, but you're right. Like there's such a different. Set of tools that these two organizations may be working with.

Right. And there has to be data exchange, right? There has to be communication between a data warehouse or the insights that, you know, an analytics platform generates to drive, right? The, the data that an attribution tool or an email marketing tool needs to get, to be able to deliver the right message at the right time , I guess Adam, where, where am I going with this? I'm going down a rabbit hole. , what, so like, walk me through, why do you think [00:07:00] that's the case? I mean, is this, is this sort of a situation where, Hey, maybe traditionally, not too long ago, just. Again, I mean the world of ad tech and MarTech, as we know it now was completely different two years ago, right?

Like to your point about privacy, the world, and the things that you could sort of do to be successful even a year ago is very different now, right?

Like why do you think traditionally product and marketing sort of struggle,   to figure this bit of it out? The people part of it. Right. So communicating with each other, but also the, Hey. Obviously I need analytics insights to power my email campaigns. Like how, yeah, 

Adam: I think that historically the, the way that these teams are structured, they're structured very differently.

Um, and historically these teams have not necessarily had to have so much communication, especially in companies that have been around for quite a while or organizations. Have much more of [00:08:00] a,   foothold and have been around for, you know, 10 plus years, the way that we work has changed the way that teams interact is changing.

And especially now, when you see a lot of organizations adopting new models in terms of how we work together, such as the Spotify model with the tribes and things like this, it's really changing how teams,   work together. And these teams historically have not, of course, product teams will work more in,   I think, you know, scrum and agile marketing teams won't necessarily do that.

They have different processes, different ways of communicating. And I think that this is, , one of the things which come up is that oftentimes it's a little bit of a cats and dog scenario. , and a lot of,   what I observe is how these teams work together or lack thereof. And I think that this is a very huge part.

Um, what you said of the way that we work [00:09:00] today is much different from the way we work two years ago, especially in,   an ecosystem which is changing very rapidly, not just on the tool side or on the data side, but also on the way people work. , not just because Coronas completely changed everything, but yeah, I think that because of how the faster the, the world is moving, it has forced companies to structurally adapt.

And I think that the way product teams work is,   something that is very set in stone. And,   there's a lot of mindsets there, particularly from, you know, certain ways of working the way people like to work, that don't necessarily have an automatic, automatic fit with the way a marketing team works. But it's about finding some commonality there and about identifying a new way to work together.

I think that these are two teams in order to. Take part in transformations that absolutely have to be on the same page. And this is, we're not [00:10:00] talking big things here. We're talking even, you know, on the implementation of a certain tool, which can be, you know, used by multiple different teams, but has to involve developers.

And it's about understanding why it's important, , who will be using it and things like this. 

Abhi: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it, it, it, it makes a lot of sense. And, , what I'm hearing here is it's, it's almost, , I think a lot of what's what's coming across a lot of, I think what you're doing Adam is just helping sort of these two, I mean, both from a technology perspective, but from a people perspective, Speak the same language or find some commonality in the same language.

Right? So it's, how do you translate a marketing KPI into a spec that product can read and understand and get behind that could then deliver, right? Whatever it is, onboarding a new tool or getting a new data set from one system to [00:11:00] another, , sort of communication sort of key into that. Yeah, 

Adam: absolutely.

It as much about the way teams work,   and the way they interact, not just with the tools, but with each other as it is about the tools,   and the goals themselves. 

Abhi: Yeah. Yeah. So, all right. Not to throw, I mean, you know, let's, let's make this a little more interesting, right. Because you know, it would, wouldn't it be wonderful, right?

I bet you would kill for this to walk into an organization. That's like, Hey Adam, We don't have any tools in place. We don't have, you know, any politics or philosophy or, you know,   sort of,   idiosyncrasies in the way we've organized as a team. Like you're starting from scratch, build our organization.

You tell me if you've ever seen one of those in reality, but I, I would imagine a lot of what you walk into is, you know, conflicting tools within an organization, 

why do you have some data on Preem and some in the cloud? Why do you have four different [00:12:00] attribution tools? Yeah. What I fear that a lot of leaders or, or change agents in companies sort of have to weigh as well, given sort of all the existing legacy infrastructure reports, things that we just sort of have to maintain for the business. Like we're not starting from a, a clean slate. Yep. And so we have to find a way to somehow keep the lights on, do what we're doing in a way, , that doesn't disrupt the business, but, you know, continue to improve somehow.

Right. It can't be, we're stuck in this inefficient way of doing things forever, but it also can't be, let's blow everything up and start from scratch. So,   could you talk about, the most challenging aspects of, you know, introducing, new technology, especially when there's existing infrastructure and suboptimal processes, and then.

Like any tips that you have for, for brands, organizations that have identified, there's clearly a better way of doing this. But obviously can't go in and [00:13:00] just say let's rip and replace. 

Adam: Sure. Of course. Yeah. I mean, 

Abhi: and that's a loaded question by the way. Like, I really take that wherever you want.

Oh no, no. Yeah, 

Adam: no, it's great. , I mean the, the clean slate scenario is something. Almost never happens. , even if it's from a level of, you know, they have,   there there's always something in place it's, it's,   very rare. It's, it's, it's, it's not gonna happen. But, I think the, the rip and the replace, scenario is something also that's, , not always necessary.

And this is something that I've witnessed across a lot of different projects, , and organizations. That, yeah, the whole idea of rip and replace, , doesn't have to happen. And this comes out of the identification process. So what I will start by saying,   the most important thing you can ask, especially when it comes to existing infrastructure, that could be ineffective or suboptimal processes is [00:14:00] just why, why is it currently like this?

Why is it not being used effectively? Why can it not be changed in some way? Or why are we using it at all? And these are a lot of, , the, these kind of questions. A lot of people, especially sometimes don't like to answer, or it could be. Perceived as negative. But what I would say is that a lot more issues will come out further down the line, if you don't,   challenge these things, early on, or have an open dialogue about them, whether this is to do with, , a process or tools or whatever.

, and secondly, if a team or even, on a much wider scale, a company is having issues with a process or a tool,, but cannot necessarily stop using it or switch everything up. , it doesn't have to be like that., it's not always about changing everything, , or making something unrecognizable or implementing a load of new things.

Um, I think it's important to do [00:15:00] a kind of opportunity assessment or an evaluation of tools of processes. And, , it's important to understand the process, look at who the stakeholders are, which are involved. Look at the tools that are being used. And what scale, how are the individuals within the teams using these tools from front to back and understand the dependencies and begin with things like how something is set up, how many users does it have?

Is it being used correctly or to the best of it to ability? And it may not have to involve having to switch everything up and implement a lot of new things or rip and replace. And of course there could always be a more ideal tool candidate, or there could always be a more ideal way of doing things, but that doesn't necessarily mean that what you're currently doing is so far off, it could be a case of adjusting settings.

It could be a case of looking at how to do something differently. And of course, I think flexibility is required [00:16:00] in this mindset, as well as understanding that you can't always stick to things the same way forever, especially when it comes to your tech stack. But, , it's also about, learning things and understanding things correctly and how they can be used identifying where certain things within tools and processes can be improved.

You, you have to progress and it's about, , you know, as much about understanding that you can't do something the same way forever, as you can about understanding that you can't use a certain tool the same way forever. In order to achieve your goals, it's about, , really taking a look at how something works and if it's not working, why is it being used?

Um, these are the things I think that fundamentally a lot of organizations or, , project stakeholders don't necessarily do enough of either, because of it's the kind of culture that they're not able to., or because they've just not really been able to do that before, because they're working within a setup where [00:17:00] there's a lot of different tools within the stack.

Um, yeah, these are scenarios which happen quite a lot, but the rip and replace as nice as it sounds, it doesn't necessarily have to be like that. It sometimes requires a more fine tuned audit, like scenario, an opportunity assessment and a lot of question asking. 

Abhi: I don't know if you know everything you there said there, Adam makes all the sense in the world, but in my lived experience to your point, it so rarely happens.

Right. And it it's it's , you know, you're not saying, you know, there there's no silver bullet here, right? There's no like, oh yeah. You know, you could say these seven buzzwords and you know, it it'll work out. I mean, it really does take stakeholders coming in a room and doing that analysis. But I think you hit on something that's really interesting to me, which is that, , this concept of like change is inevitable.

Right? And the idea that I think there [00:18:00] might have been at the time of where a certain naming convention was created for a certain tool or a certain dependency between, you know, two or three different systems was created very well intentioned and made all the sense in the world for where the business was two years ago,

but to your point, because I think a lot of. And we could, you know, technology is the easy way to talk about it because, you know, I've seen some of the architecture diagrams for some of my customers and they're, I, I,   I almost get dizzy, right. Like I, I, I fall down sometimes. Oh yeah. , but each of those also represents a group or a business stakeholder, a person behind each of those blocks on a diagram.

And, , I guess what I'm trying to say there is,   without I think having that continual monitoring of, Hey, I know we did this or implemented this because it made sense and solve for [00:19:00] this need two years ago. Does that need still exist today? And is this set up still the best way to solve for that? Or does that need not exist at all?

And I think, you know, you tell me, but like I've had CU I don't do this as much directly as you do, but like, yeah. Like there's been like, Hey, what does this tool do in your stack? And like, oh, well, you know, somebody set this up two years ago and we don't really know if anyone's using it, but you know, it's always been set up and, you know, no one really wants to touch it.

And I see a lot of like, there's no ownership over a certain thing. It's like, Hey, let's just not break what's or let's just not kind of touch what's what's already in place. Even if we have no idea if it's adding any value to anyone. 

Adam: Yeah. Yeah. Ignorance is BLIS. , I think it's very important to have someone, whether that's,   someone from the outside, like myself or an agency who can maybe actually do an [00:20:00] evaluation of this kind of thing, or have someone within your company who is responsible for internal evaluations of tools and processes, and look at how things can be improved, because otherwise you are faced with a situation where potentially.

In two or three years time, you have tools which are irrelevant or processes, which are not up to scratch for things like data privacy changes or on the marketing side changes within, you know, apple or,   you know, you know, let's say iOS 14 plus, or like these kind of things. It's important that you have someone that is monitoring the ecosystem and actually constantly reevaluating whether what you have is actually up to scratch and, , this can be someone from within or from, without your organization.

But I do think that it is necessary to have someone who, is taking ownership of, , [00:21:00] these kind of internal processes and,   tool related strategies, , within any organization. Absolutely. 

Abhi: For anyone listening. I think there's so much value in almost having basically you right as a permanent sort of stakeholder in an organization, that's saying, Hey, look, I am not politically affiliated. If you will, with, you know, marketing or, or, product or anything. Like I have no skin in the game I'm just objectively looking at all the tools, all the processes at my organization, because I think what happens though, in practice in a lot of places.

Well, if I'm somebody in marketing, like who am I to go into? Criticize right. Another department or another team. And I think oftentimes that can come across as let me go start throwing, you know, stones at your glass house. Right. And see. Absolutely. So I, I don't know if like you, you find that and I think there's so much value in what someone [00:22:00] like you does because you're not coming in and saying like, marketing's the best department and product isn't up to snuff.

Like you were just looking at this. And again, you're sort of like coming in for a defined purpose, which is you have goals to meet as a business. Every department's aligned to that. Let's go figure out where the gaps are and it doesn't matter which department that necessarily falls into. 

Adam: Yeah, absolutely.

Um, I think it's very important to be tool agnostic and also,   not be finger pointing at, you know, any particular team or department I've seen and been involved in situations where a lot of the faults are of, product nature and there's things to do with the product which are causing,   for example, users to not want to continue using a particular app.

Um, but also, I can say equally on the marketing side, there's also a lot of mistakes that happen and nobody [00:23:00] wants,   you know,   someone from the marketing team going to the,   data team and then being like, you know, this is not what we want to do, or this is not what,   you know, is working. And it's about having someone who can.

Keep tabs on being able to, optimize and innovate with processes and,   and as much as with tools. And I think that, yeah, it doesn't matter who that person is, but it's important to have someone who is, , not affiliated, particularly with one team or someone that has a, long history or favoritism with a certain tool or a certain way of doing things.

Um, and I think that's where,   someone like me as a MarTech consultant, if you will, or any other kind of consultant can come in, with this kind of mindset. And, , yeah, this is why it's important to have such a, a role, have someone who can,   be hired in to take a look at these things and, , see where things can be improved, not just on the, [00:24:00]   marketing side, but also on the, product side, when it comes to,   the way someone is tracked or highlighting that, you know, this is broken within the app and, you know, you're gonna lose users if you don't fix this, things like that is, is equally as important.

Abhi: okay. I think we've beaten the, the sort of people and organizational processing to debt and, and, you know, look, I mean, for the listeners out there

i, I don't think anything we talked about today is, is rocket science or, , particularly complex, but it's, it's,   you know, complex and difficulty aren't necessarily tied together. Like something could be very simple to understand yet very difficult to do. And I think, yeah. And if I had to sum it up, like the difficulty is, yeah.

How do we build? I think in so far as organizations can build, whether that is bringing in, you know, someone like [00:25:00] yourself , or. Building this process into their own internal makeup, but it's like building more of that connective tissue and incentivizing and creating the right processes and system that sort of facilitates.

And let's just keep it to MarTech sort of a, a product team working with the marketing team. Right. And I think to your point, that's a relatively new concept. Like this is not something that maybe an organization that's been around for 50 years, 30 years, a hundred years had to do when they were a startup.

Right. I mean, this is not the way, , organizations had to work together because this was ultimately not the way. It, it, the way the world communicated. Their audience, right. Their customers yeah.   has fundamentally changed and yes, I mean, I think C's rapidly accelerated that for a lot of different organizations, but I, I, I think we [00:26:00] can all agree.

Like, I don't know if you could live in the world today of tech and data and really be skating ahead of the puck, if you will,   without these two teams communicating with each other. And so it's, , yeah, I think that's the, the biggest takeaway I had from this part of our conversation so far, which is that it has to happen.

There's a lot of reasons why it doesn't happen. , and you know, I, I think whatever your solution is, like, you have to start by. How do we get these teams to talk effectively to each other? And there has to be some attention paid to that? , 

Adam: absolutely. Yeah. But I think that you, your, your summary is correct. There is,   fundamental parts, which are often overlooked and,   in terms of processes and technical documentation, and a lot of building blocks sometimes are not built in the right way or, , are not there at all. And I think that, [00:27:00] , yeah, this is something that is sometimes overlooked and then you get further down the road and then you realize, you know, hold on.

Like something's not quite right. Or, you know, , why have we got all this stuff? , and this is, , yeah, this is kind of, I don't know where I'm going with this, but this is, , a scenario that a lot of people end up with. 

Abhi: Yeah, a hundred percent. Okay. Completely moving to something else. And I, I ha like, as a, as a, as a customer success manager, sort of in the thick of, you know, working with clients across all their headaches with ad tech and MarTech, one of the, I, I couldn't let you go without talking about, , I think a topic that's like very near and dear to our heart, maybe for the, the ad tech and MarTech folks out there near and dear to theirs, too.

Could you, for the listeners, maybe that aren't so close to this world, like, could you explain or define in your words, like what attribution means to you? Like what, what are we trying to do here? When we talk about attribution? 

Adam: Yeah. Sure.

[00:28:00] Okay. So, , let's, let's take a look at this from the publisher view.   you have a lot of users coming to, let's say your app and you're running a lot of campaigns across a lot of different channels, maybe some CRM initiatives and, , seeing all these sources bring you traffic. , but it's about identifying which channel is the most interesting.

So with all the users coming to your app and users doing in-app actions, you would like to know which sources are influencing the app install or the purchases that are happening within the app. , of course, you know, a user,   could have seen the ad on one or two or more channels or via your website.

It doesn't matter. , attribution is about defining a unique source of action by a user. So, , it's important because a user can be targeted [00:29:00] by many channels and each channel, excuse me, each channel can,   then claim a user. So if a user saw an ad on Google, but installed your app. After looking on Instagram, this could be an issue since both channels will say that they created an install for you.

Um, so attribution is about. Identifying the correct user source. , yeah. You wanna be able to attribute users to a particular source. You wanna be able to track key events within your app to understand which source is responsible for creating valuable actions, such as purchases, registrations, et cetera.

Um, so it's about determining a certain action, whether that's a page visit app install, , it's not important, but yeah, it's about, , yeah, like whether it's the result of a certain media source or engagement and attribution, it's essential. , and it's still essential [00:30:00] for optimizing user acquisition re-engagement,   and results.

So it will help you decide where to invest your money and determine the success of a campaign. And it will also tell you how much money you spent on each advertising channel and, and, you know, the impact that it had. I guess that's it. 

Abhi: no, no, no, no, no. Sorry. That was such, 

Adam: yeah. I, I, yeah. I mean,   yeah, that's it 

Abhi: no, that, that's it.

Well, listen, we could, you know, maybe in the future, if we stay in the, in our respective industry long enough, maybe we, we, we coauthor a book on attribution, right? But it's like, Hey, everyone's got a limited budget.

Everyone wants to drive whatever person to do some key thing. Right? Whether that's making a purchase or installing their app, there's some goal. Yep. Why you are spending money on getting your brand or your product out into the world. [00:31:00] Instead of throwing that money into the ether and hoping and praying that,   You know that you'll hit your, your goal of a million subscribers or whatever it is, it's, let's deploy our money, but let's get feedback on that.

So what's my return on investment, right? And fundamentally, the better you could get as an organization on understanding return on investment for. Your brand presence to the world, if you will,   the better you can get at spending less on the things that aren't really successful for you and more on the things that are.

And, you know, I, I think the goal for everyone is, yeah, how do we make sure we get the most purchases,   in, you know, a given set of time or the most installs, whatever that goal is for you. 

Adam: Yeah. It's about measurement.   it's it's about measurement. And I, I think that that's, the most important key takeaway when considering attribution is how to then measure so, yeah.

Abhi: So, okay, Adam, so then just to make this valuable for the audience, what [00:32:00] would you recommend as sort of a crawl attribution goal or aspiration? How could you take attribution to the next level and then sort of. What's like ideal state for you,   or as close to ideal as you can be in the current climate. So what's sort of Nirvana for attribution. 

Adam: Yeah, I think, , where we begin is firstly, for attribution to work, it's important to have a tracking concept, in place with key conversion goals in the user journey and, , make sure that what you are tracking, is relevant.

  for example, if you are. an eCommerce brand, , you know, you tracking views to the help page is not necessarily helping the marketing side. It's great for customer experience, but, this is not relevant for your campaigns. I also think that it's important to understand,   different rules surrounding, things like iOS.

Android and, , you know, know the implications of these changes that are going on within [00:33:00] the ecosystem because tracking and attribution, it's not getting any easier. , and I think it's important to have an understanding of what's going on within the ecosystem, in order for you to put together this kind of concept.

Um, so having knowledge about these changes and trying to keep ahead of the curb will,   maximize your chances of getting attributions in an ever-changing difficult environment. And this is what I would say,   in terms of a crawl is, , yeah, you can't track what you don't understand. So, if you can't track or understand tracking you can't measure attribution and you can't make use of the data.

So my first point is yeah. Have something in place and understand what it is completely that you want to do. That makes sense and understand what is going on within the ecosystem. , secondly, just to come back to a point that you mentioned, I would not rely on channel attribution.

Um, all of them will try and claim the same [00:34:00] install. Download or,   you know, many of them now are self attributing networks. And I think that it's important to not rely on channel attribution. , this is,   inaccurate,   especially as a, as a publisher. , so 

Abhi: look to Facebook and Google aren't necessarily best friends.

Adam: sure again, exactly, exactly. There's a lot of,   complex,   let's say, so this is very important and, which leads me onto, I think the, the key second takeaway, , is look to have a, measurement partner implemented within your tech stack so that you can measure attribution. Effectively, , this will be key in being able to help you understand attribution.

And this can only take place after you have a concept for what it is that you're trying to do. , I also think that it's very important that you connect all your marketing channels and your media efforts to the measurement partner. Mm-hmm as well as implementing [00:35:00] events within the measurement partner that you want to track users.

So have trackable events within your app that you can track users also have them within the measurement partner and connect your channels. , this is something that I think is a key takeaway is having a tool in place that will help you attribute users do not rely on the channels. , it will not help you.

Right. Right, right. And. I think third and final point, , without going into too much of a crazy, crazy rabbit hole is, understand and adjust,   things like the attribution reattribution and the inactivity windows within the tool. Once you've implemented it. It's important to experiment, , understand the results for each channel and for your product in general.

Um, play around with the settings. And, , don't just think that you've implemented this tool. , it's measuring X, Y, Z. That's [00:36:00] fine. , it's about innovation and optimization. You cannot just plug in and play. You have to experiment and,   then you can get some results. And then once you have these results, you can really, really start to analyze.

And this is what I would say is,   a third and final best practice. So to speak is of course I could now go and say, okay, it's about connecting this tool and this tool, and, you know, sending this data here, et cetera. That is, I would say something that comes a little bit later. , I think it's important to experiment, get data, look at it, understand how you can adjust certain settings, really get to grips with what you have implemented, especially if it's something that's a bit, you know, zero to 60 type scenario where you did not have anything in place to begin with.

Um, really understand what it is that you're doing here. , and adjust things like the attribution reattribution inactivity, windows, , you [00:37:00] know, realize how you can make sense of the data. That's that's the key point 

Abhi: And I think that's such a nice bow on what we talked about here, which is that whether it's a product team or a marketing team or a particular technology yeah.

In an ideal state, those things never operate in the silo. Yeah, absolutely. And really that, that third point you made there, Adam, , around. Attribution should be a component of, of data that you consider to how your whole product experiences, how you portray yourself to your target audience.

Um, because to your point, maybe it's not that a particular channel is necessarily bad at driving your users to it. It's just that once they finally get to some key point in the journey, There's a huge drop off, and that may have nothing to do with how you're targeting your users and, and acquiring them into your page.

It just may be that it's really hard to navigate to the, the product or complete a purchase or whatever action it is. And, [00:38:00] , 

Adam: absolutely like in user, you not complete that profile because, a certain button is not working,   right. These are all things that making can, can all amount to something. And I think that that's,   another just, sorry, one thing I've forgotten.

No, of course at, at this stage, you can also, start to make use of, all the secondary data that's being collected and make use of the parameters that you've implemented within the measurement partner, and, , Yeah, this is the kind of data that is collected. you can analyze it and see how you can optimize what you do based on the settings and based on the placeholders that you have within the measurement partner, , as well as the events that it being monitored within the app.

And this, like you just mentioned is exactly how you start to innovate. 

Abhi: Yeah. Amazing. Amazing. So, Adam I realize we're, we're close to time, but if you have a couple more minutes, I promise now we're, we're gonna go to the fun, fun part of this, [00:39:00]   sure. This call. I'd love to know for Adam as a consumer,   what's your, your favorite brand or experience and, and why. 

Adam: Yeah, sure. , so, or one of your 

Abhi: favorite, right? 

Adam: Yeah, no, no, sure. It's, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a great question. , I think that I, you know, I, I do have one that I think is very nice and I think that it's something that is very wildly used by a lot of people, especially in our industry.

 I have to say that I do love click up. , I think they clearly have a very good product team that, are very good at releasing improvements and continually optimizing their product. And the UX is great and I use it every day. So I would say that click up is something, that I, I, I really value in terms of the experience that I have with it.

Um, and I could say. I think the exact same, for,   Miro, which I think is great for concepting for the, for the exact same reasons. But I [00:40:00] think in terms of, I know if I was to say something that I have recently discovered,   which is an app that I'm gonna use, especially. When I'm in other countries, there's an app called,   world of mouth, which I think was,     bought to bought to life by a food critic.

Um, I think it's a really cool concept. It's especially if you love food, like, like I do, which is a chance for people to share, food insights around the world. And,   in any city that you travel to, you can go on this app and it's got suggestions by people. So it's, it's, it's very nice and it just looks very, very cool.

It's like,   if the new Yorker had a, a food recommendation app, so,   yeah. I, I really like that. I think that that's, I know you've got three and that's enough. I 

Abhi: think no a hundred percent, Miro

I know a funny story about Miro. I just,   one of our design guys, actually, when we were. Birthing the concept of this connected podcast.   he was like, let's spin up a mural board. And I'm like, what what's I thought mural was like,   I dunno to me Miro some, some [00:41:00] building I remember in Miami from many years ago.

So I'm like what the heck's Miro. And then we actually ended up like creating swim lanes. I'm like whiteboarding ideas for the concept north. So I I'm with you on mirror. I, I think that's a really nice product. I will check all of these out.   yeah. And you're you're with me on the foodie thing. I mean, the, yeah, as soon as we hop off the call, I'm gonna, I'm gonna download,   world of mouth, but, , alright Adam promise. We're gonna wrap with this. , so I'm gonna ask you five questions.

They're all rapid fire, and they're usually a choice between two items. So say what's on your mind. There's no shame, you know, no judgment here. , and,   let's, let's give it a rip. So, okay. First question. , Pineapple on pizza. Yes or no, 

Adam: 100%. Yes. Come on 

Abhi: Ram. oh, wow. Okay. 

Adam: I'm not one of these people that thinks it's weird.

I'm sorry. I think it's delicious. And you're fool to think otherwise, 

Abhi: love that. [00:42:00] Love that take amazing. All right. , winter or summer sports. 

Adam: Oh, come on summer. Like being from the UK, you have to value every single minute, bit of sun that you have. So,   

Abhi: summer. I'm I'm with you. I'm with you. I don't know you.

I may, maybe you're like an avid ski or something in Switzerland. No, no, 

no. 

Adam: Who, who, who wants to play sports in the cold? Come on. Not even the people that are paid to do that. 

Abhi: I'm   listen, I was a guy that grew up in Florida,   and played tennis his whole life. I,   you're you're not getting a disagreement from me on this, so.

Okay, good. All right.   you know, I should have asked, asked you this maybe before we hopped on the podcast, but I'm gonna give it a try. I don't know if you're a huge, huge NBA basketball fan, but near and dear to my heart, LeBron or MJ, 

Adam: I will have to take myself out of this question. I don't know enough about it and I probably care even less truthfully.

So like fair enough. Sorry. [00:43:00] , yeah, come back to me. When you want to talk about football or as you call it soccer. 

Abhi: As I call it soccer. Well, okay. Hold on. Hold on. For the European,   audience that I am trying to grow for this podcast.   scratch MJ or LeBron, give me,   Aldo or messy.

Fair enough. Fair enough. 

Adam: With absolute conviction. Sorry. It's just cooler. 

Abhi: Yeah. all right. All right. Fair enough. There you go. , frozen yogurt or ice cream ice cream. 

Adam: I have the best ice cream place near me.   it makes, it makes trying to maintain a healthy lifestyle. Very difficult,   by far the, the best,   the, the best ice cream in Berlin.

So if you,   anywhere near NOCO, , yeah, check out ices.   it's   gonna 

Abhi: blow your mind ices. All right. All right. Will do. And,   Matt. It's almost like you read my mind with the [00:44:00] foodie thing, because I'm a huge foodie. Every guest on the podcast gets this and my goal,   you know what I mean, next time I'm in Berlin or, or wherever we are in the world.

Like we gotta share a meal, but, , I have to ask favorite restaurant, , sort of in Berlin. 

Adam: Oh. Or, or, or, 

Abhi: you know what, or, or, or the UK I'll give you sort of both. No, no, 

Adam: no, let's go. Let's go. Let's go Berlin. Okay. No, I've been here long enough. It's my home now. It's   no, , oh my God. Two seconds. Yeah, 

Abhi: take it.

Take your time. Cause I, I, I, I think I, I, I write a list of all these restaurants, Adam, next time. I'm, we'll make it happen somewhere in, in, in the next, wherever we meet up. Yeah, we, we gotta do a meal, but, but yeah, you gotta give me your favorite 

Adam: restaurant. Great question. It's a big question. , you know what.

I'm not gonna, I'm gonna completely disregard any kind of, you know, fine dining. Nice establishment. [00:45:00] Yeah, I'm gonna go for, so, , anyone who who's been to Berlin or lives in Berlin know that, you know, a good CBA, you're gonna get a good CBA everywhere. , everyone claims to have the Besta, but I can tell you that the best app in Berlin is Roy Royal in SHNE Burke, not the one in,   Alberg the OG Royal in SHNE Burke because of all the graffiti on the walls and all the grease that's in the kitchen.

That's the best Kaba. , if you wanna listen to Deut trap at a very, very loud volume and be surrounded by a lot of people doing a lot of hand to hand business and delicious food Royal in Shoeneberg. And honestly, it's gonna, it's gonna change your life. I am not saying that out of anything, but sheer love it is hands down.

Easily, top three for me in Berlin places. 

Abhi: That is fabulous. And yeah, [00:46:00] listen, it's, it's gonna happen. We're gonna do this. We're we're gonna bring this to Berlin and we, 

Adam: Abby, Abby, when you're here, I'm taking, I'm taking you to Roy it's. We have to go to Roy 

Abhi: AB yeah, yeah. Amongst other things, but we're, we're we're gonna do Roy 

Adam: for sure.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Roy I think is,   it's key.   and I am a huge, huge advocate. I think that like, you know, restaurants, it's there there's many here and there's a lot of good cafes, but Royal for me is definitely up there in terms of food. It's   I've never had AAB like this and some people will say, mu staffers is better.

It's not.

Abhi: Come on. Shout. Shout us out on,   on social if you disagree, but yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Come and get it. Exactly. Oh man. Adam, I,   man, I can't thank you enough for,   for making the time today, sharing some insights, wisdom. 

So, wrapping this up, I'd, I'd love to understand sort of , what's, what's next for you.[00:47:00] 

Adam: Yeah. , so I'm very excited to be involved,   in the near future with a, a large brand here in Berlin, with a global presence. So, I, as of September, I'll be working,   with them. I'm very excited, but for that, you'll have to,   yeah. Wait for the LinkedIn update. I think so, yeah. Please feel free to, add me on LinkedIn.

I'm more than happy to. speak with,   anyone and, hopefully,   yeah, hopefully get to speak with, many of you. , but, first I'm taking some time off in August and visiting Mexico for the first time, speaking of which, I will shout out my girlfriend Giselle. Hello and,   yeah, easily, easily the smartest person.

I know,   also very experienced working, working within the same field and I will probably be dead in a ditch somewhere without her. So yeah, I have to give her a shout out, but. please   give me an add on LinkedIn. , feel free to gimme a follow and,   very excited for what's coming in the near future.

Abhi: Adam. Well, best of luck. [00:48:00]   yeah, for those listening, we'll include, Adam's link in the sort of episode description so, , man, Ken, thank you enough for joining and   well thank you.