Connected, by mParticle Episode 4: Maximizing organizational relationships with Taylor DiVincenzo

In this episode, we interview Taylor DiVenchenzo, Sr. Solutions Engineer, Brand Marketer, and Programmatic Media Buyer. Having worked on all sides of the equation from agency to tech provider to brand, Taylor shares his wisdom on how all sides can maximize the partnership. We also get into programmatic media and how, if done right, can lead to some memorable customer experiences.

Pineapple on Pizza: 3 Yes, 1 No

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Abhi: Can't thank you enough for, uh, for making some time to jump on the podcast on a Friday night, um, But, uh, yeah, I mean, look, I let's, let's let our listeners in on this.

Uh, would you mind Taylor, just given, you know, given the audience, um, a little intro here?

Taylor: Sure thing. Sure thing, man. Well, again, a super appreciate you having me on this is huge. I know you talked about wanting to do this for a while and it's cool to see that those sort of like dream come to fruition. So congrats and kudos, man.

Um, so I'm Taylor . I have been working in digital for about five years or so now. Um, I, uh, I started off, um, after college trying to be a teacher. It didn't really pan out, which is kinda how, uh, maybe that's its own podcast. Um, but you know, I started off in teaching and wanted to sort of pivot my career after I couldn't find a full-time teaching job. Um, and digital was something that even as like a teenager, like I kind of knew peripherally was just interesting. Um, Google ads was still called ad-words. Um, people were starting up online businesses.

They were working for themselves. They were making money. I thought, wow, that's so cool. Everyone is like doing this from behind a computer. And some of them are doing it by themselves. I would like to enter into that space. And so I didn't really know like what that looked like and got my start, uh, basically helping out like a family owned.

Chimney company that was trying to stand up like an e-commerce arm. They wanted to sell chimney cleaning equipment to sweeps nationally. Um, and I was only there for a little bit before they kind of folded the entire program, but it, it gave me enough of a taste of digital to want to just like keep doing it.

So, um, I kind of did a bunch of hustling, basically. Uh, I was cold emailing people on LinkedIn reaching out to connections of mine from like the photography industry. Cause I had dabbled in that quite a bit, uh, and seeing who new agency contacts that I could just chat with. And eventually I got a woman named Rachel clue.

Who's still, I believe is in the space, had a coffee with me and said, Hey, we're hiring at my agency. I'm happy to refer you. And that's pretty much where it started is, you know, uh, was agency side for a little over a year. Um, enjoyed it, a thought I was going to start off in paid search, um, and actually wound up in programmatic.

Did not know anything about programmatic, um, bit of a blessing in disguise because I grew to love it immediately. So did the agency thing for a year, it was like, I tell everybody it's like digital marketing bootcamp when you work at an agency. And, uh, some people love it. Some people hate it. Um, I loved it for the year I was there, but I was ready to check new things out.

So did the age of the thing was a, was a trader, you know, and then went a brand side and. From from that first agency experience, until now I've been fortunate to be a buyer, to be a seller, to work brand side, publisher side. Um, and then even, even then working in a growth marketing mindset. And then also in like in on-site media sales mindset.

So like I've gotten to play fortunately like a pretty unique, um, I've gotten to play all the, like, wear all the hats I've gotten to play all the parts. And I think that, you know, if there's any like success that I have experienced in my life, I think it's partly due to, to those multifaceted experiences I had being, you know, again, agency side, uh, brand side tech providers side, um, working for a DSP.

So it's, it's been a long journey in five years, but that's kind of. Where I am and who I am now. And, um, man, I think I might be in it for the long haul, so,

Abhi: I know the content, when we go back, you know, we're going to hear a, Hey Taylor did a lot of things. I guess like what I got to say and the reason that honestly, I think, especially now with this like explosion of data, technology, privacy, I mean, the reason I was so excited to have you on the podcast is in that short amount of time, Taylor, I mean, what you just said right there, right?

You. You've worked at a brand where you've dealt with building direct customer experience, and one to one marketing to, you know, ad buying ad selling. Um, the part that we didn't even get into yet is now, you know, kind of your most recent life, which, you know, you've sort of, sort of joined my club on the SAS side.

Like you've worked with prospects and customers on, selling technology, uh, into brand. Well, um,

Taylor: yeah, so to, to expand on that, like, I didn't, I didn't, uh, I didn't try to do it this way. Um, and like one thing I would love for like younger traders or just younger, um, like, you know, DeGette specialists or digital marketing specialists in general to know is like the world really kind of easier or is boisterous digital.

Like you can, you can kind of go where you want, if you know what you're looking for. I, I got started in. 20. I started the agency like 20 16, 20 17, um, which feels like not long ago, but yeah, I got started at a time when, like the cookie list future wasn't really top of mind, Cambridge and the Cambridge Analytica scandal hadn't happened yet.

Um, ITP was around, but like floundering a little bit. Um, the MPS were still a big thing. The NPS were huge. Right. Um, I remember going through those RFPs and even today with like the, you know, the, the sort of scrutiny a little bit on, on, on, uh, digital marketing practice in general, especially where privacy is concerned.

Like there's still optionality for people to like carve out a career. In this industry and it doesn't have to just be like, you don't have to stay a senior programmatic trader and you don't, you don't, you don't, you can move, you're exposed to so many different technologies from BI tools to sQL R Python, all these different querying languages, you can kind of pivot your career as you see fit. And that's, I guess what I'm trying to get at is I didn't even necessarily see where the market was going, but I felt personally compelled to explore these different aspects of my career. And I, and I encourage anybody who was like me that didn't really know what they wanted to do after college to explore digital. Because like, I think that this career can, this, this industry can set you off on a career path that you will design, uh, yourself.

Abhi: I guess on that note, right. Sticking on to that topic of your journey so far, and why, I think it's so relevant to this question I've been dying to ask you one of the things I wanted to share with the listeners is the fact that you've worked agency brand.

And also now on the sort of like vendors side, right. If we're thinking about like selling software, um, I would love to get your perspective on two things. So what, what I wanted to ask you first. Okay. Now that you've sort of worn those three hats. Like, let's take you back to when you were brand side, right.

In terms of, working better with your partners. What would you share from your perspective, uh, on how somebody within a brand can make the most out of their technology and agency partners and relationships?

Taylor: Yeah, I think that, that's actually a great question. So I have found that, and this is, I mean, this is from personal experience. I have found that most people who are maybe not building the softwares themselves, but are operating them. So again, like an, like an agency trading desk or an agency social team, Uh, they're, they're proficient in the usage of the platform, but I don't know that they always have understood like the philosophies driving platform functionalities or any, any platform feature.

And I say that because oftentimes when I hear about people who are frustrated with, um, like a tech provider that they work with, or just any other, um, any other tech provider in the space, uh, again, whether that's like a BI BI servicer or some data visualization tool, they, they, I always tend to hear like a lack of, uh, empathy from the, um, end user.

And I think that we, maybe I hesitate to say this, I think maybe as an industry, we have oversold some of our capabilities over the years and, and, you know, there's, there's a little bit of like salesmanship that happens during like an RFP RFP process where. Uh, a lot of people will laugh at this because they know it's true.

Like sellers will sell a product that like doesn't exist yet. It's not even on the product roadmap yet, but in end user of that product is turning around to their manager and their director and making a presentation going like, Hey, this is what we're going to do. They told us we could do it. It's on the roadmap for Q2.

We've got these three clients lined up to adopt it and it falters and someone gets yelled at, someone gets written up or whatever. Like, I mean, tactically speaking, this is what happens. And I think the best way to like leverage relationships with your like incumbent tech providers or even someone, someone new is just to be honest, honest, uh, when we worked together, um, from, from a, like a client, um, and provider relationship aspect, like I was very honest with you about what I saw, where.

Um, not failings, but like things that we needed help with that I didn't have answers for. And I was very willing to say to you or to say to any other, uh, you know, uh, partner in the space, it's like, I don't know how to fix this problem. Let me spell it out for you a couple of different ways. So I know that you understand it, but then I would love your feedback on it.

And I guess what I'm really getting at is I wish that there was more organic collaboration between like the client and the platform or the provider or whatever. There tends to be just too much like song and dance. Let's sell the software, let's sell the platform, we got them trained up. Okay, cool. Let's, let's move on.

Right. And, and, and you know, that, that, that isn't successful, especially coming from like a CSM type role where you're facilitating and nurturing that client relationship after the sale, um, I don't think that there is as much of that today as there should be. And, and I know that kind of sounds a little nebulous, but I think it's just old school customer service collaboration.

This industry moves at an alarmingly fast pace. Um, yeah, I think if we just like took a second to like really, really flush out what it is we want or desire from a, from a product, from platform, from a feature, um, it becomes a lot easier to like prescribed that to like your partners.

Abhi: I'll say this, like I'm listening to you and of course, look, I'm, I'm biased, right?

Like I've only, at least in the world of. SAS and tech. And say that broadly, like I've only been on the vendors side, right. Selling into, you know, into organizations. And then now sort of being on the other side of the house where, you know, I sold the dream, like let's figure out how the sausage is made a little bit. What I took out of what you just said there, you know, having been somebody that, has paid the bill, right? Like his sat at the brand that works with the vendor and something. I really appreciated even day one when we met up in Chicago and we were talking about, you know, the software we have support you and your use case that I think that was a key thing from day one.

You never came across as someone that was like, I already know what should happen. And you have nothing vendor to add. In addition to that it's just, are you going to do this or are you not going to do this for

Taylor: me? Okay. They see that attitude a lot and yeah. And if I

can,

Abhi: oh four, right? Cause at the end of the day, there might be an alternate solution there maybe there isn't.

Like there's going to, I mean, not, there's no single software in the world that is everything for all people.

Taylor: But the, the process you just described, isn't inherently not collaborative because you have again, the client saying to you, are you going to do this for me? Or are you not going to do this for me?

Because I'll take my, my hundred K my 1 million, 10 million elsewhere. And that attitude is. Like toxic, I guess, for, for, for this type of ministry.

Abhi: This may sound like common sense, but you're so right. Like, I mean, in my own experience and I can only speak from one side of this, I can absolutely see the polar differences between the folks, the companies, the people that I have.

A transactional relationship with, and those that I feel like I have a real partnership with and segwaying that Taylor sort of, cause I, I want to be fair cause you've straddled both sides. Like let's talk about a little bit about the other side of that coin which is like, don't be, you know, a snake oil salesman, don't be a used car salesman. Right. But I got to ask you like from a, from a technology provider or agency perspective, trying to build a partnership or relationship with a brand add value to a brand what's some advice, you know, having been on the sales side of software now, too, that you would give to an agency or, you know yeah. A solutions engineer at a tech company trying to sell it.

Taylor: Yeah. I mean, so one of the things that I see that creates success for both, like again, like a solutions engineering team selling a product, or like the client wanting it to be pitched to them is I think you have to know what you, what you want it to do. Um, I think a lot of people were getting into like DMP, RPS and CDPR PS, and, um, any of the new, like buzzword tech tools that were coming out.

Like someone wants to have a meeting with a vendor about it. And sometimes I feel like it was always to like check a box. So they could say to like their CMO that they've met with so-and-so and, and, and, you know, big thumbs up and they're going to draft us up like a, you know, an MSA we can review. I think you need to come to these providers with an idea of, or an initial scoping of what it is you want to do.

And for me, It's like one to four things of like, if I'm, if I'm selling the solution, I have four massively impactful examples that I want to show you client that, you know, I don't know your business as intimately as you do, but one of these is bound to check a box for you that really gets you excited, organically excited, right?

From the being sold to side, I want to come to an RFP or a meeting or a demo or a pitch with my one to four use cases of like, here's what my clients are painfully asking me to solve for them. You know, let me pitch these back to this provider, this vendor and see if we can't create some sort of like dynamic solution together again.

Or even if it's just a stop gap for awhile. Um, It does come down to that collaboration. But, but some people, they're not sure how to word that. I mean, in an industry that changes, like we said, like, so, so consistently and so rapidly, it's hard to it. It always ends up feeling we're playing this huge game of like telephone, whether it's some new acronym or some new media channel or some new media format drops and everyone gets all hyped up.

Uh, people don't have like a vernacular to talk about these tools with, um, you know, is it programmatic? Is it display? Is it OTT? Or is it digital video? Is it F or is it, you know, like, you know what I mean? And so I think, and that's just like this just from a media standpoint, even, but from like a data standpoint, like w where do you wanna, where do you want to house this?

Do you want to put this in the data warehouse? Isn't that like a data, like, no, that's not the same thing. Those are different. Like, you know, is this structured data or unstructured, like this industry gets so close to being too technical. So. I think that you kind of have to know you're too

Abhi: technical. I'll losing sight of like what the heck it is.

We're even trying to do, which seems here. Right? I,

Taylor: so I think maybe I'm, maybe I'm backing myself into the answer that I wanted to give, which is, I think that if you are the client, I think you need to do yourself and your vendor, the favor of being in a, being able to verbalize what it is you really want from that product.

Uh, whether it's a DSP and an ESP, ACDP something, something, something, right. Or if you were the agency representing the client, you need to know what it is that they want. And I. Feel for an agency team, because like, they're usually tasked with like managing clients across several verticals or different industries.

It's kind of hard to keep that all in your brain, like constantly, you know, um, you know, in sync, I get that there's going to be some inherent, you know, um, jogging from one brain cell once an app to the other. And there's going to be some confusion in there. But again, I think to, to, to create a fundamentally successful partnership with a vendor, you need to be able to communicate clearly what it is you're trying to do either for yourself or for your client.

Um, if that's a KPI goal, great. But if it's something like more procedural, if it's some sequential messaging story that you want to push out to create some brand awareness ahead of some big, bigger campaign, you need to be able to talk through that strategy. Um, and I find that. Uh, you mentioned this word earlier, uh, transactional, these, these meetings, these RFPs, these entire relationship dynamics end up feeling very transactional.

And again, not to sound redundant, we just need to be more collaborative in that discovery phase of like, here's what my client wants, or I'm the client. Here's what I want. Can you do these four things? And the solutions engineer with a CSM on the other end of that call is going to go, oh, I heard these four things.

Did you mean this? Did you mean this? Did you mean this? And did you mean this? And it's sort of like playing that back to, to your client, getting a proper story on paper, go scope that sow later, if you're the vendor, send it back to the client for feedback you're in alignment. Everybody hopefully signs the ink, uh, or inks the deal and walks away and, and, and, and that's where the partnership really starts.

So I don't know if that adds the color that, uh, That we're looking for there, but I, I just think, uh,

Abhi: no, I mean, you know, it does Taylor, because I think on, and again, a bit of a loaded question, right. Because I sort of knew where we were going to, I thought I knew where we were going to come to, um, you know, which is look, I mean, this is that point.

There is, it's two sides of the same coin. Right. And I don't think we're saying, like, I know one side of the coin, you know, and I could have my interpretation of what the other side of the coin might be. You bet on both

Taylor: sides to that coin. Yeah. I'm privileged in that regard um, I just have the empathy, I guess, for both sides, because I get the urgency of a client wanting to please their client, their client, when it might be a customer, or it might be, you know, if it's a B2B, it's some other business, but then being the, the, the vendors saying like, I want to do that for you, but I have, I have like other priorities that I need to get out the door first.

And then absolutely. I want to take care of like what you're, um, what you're going through, what your problem is. Um, so it. Again, it's all very resolvable with like clear and cut communication. Sure. I think the only thing that I can never solve for is that client's sense of urgency that I just mentioned is like, I've been told no before, because like, I just can't get something to a client fast enough.

And like, I'm not going to jeopardize, I'm not going to disrespect that client by trying to sell them a half-baked product. Does that make sense

Abhi: thousand percent and where I was going to and, you know, definitely let me know whether you agree or disagree with this, but to kind of put a bow on this particular topic.

Right. Which is like, how the hell can all these people work together. And these people that represent kind of these different powers that be, that sort of are codependent on their success, right? Like brands need technologies, right? Agencies need brands for me as a CSM, when I can go to a customer now and say, sorry, no, like it, it's just like, we're not purpose built, like our roadmap. Isn't going this way. I know you want me to do this. I empathize with you. Like, I won't do this, but here's what I can do. Yes. To your point about like, it's

Taylor: better that by the way, there's power in that

Abhi: it's better to say no quickly when you have to, when you know, it's an obvious no, because, and the bigger picture on all of this, uh, Taylor, even from like a, um, like whether you are that.

That person at the brand or whether you are, you know, me a CSM or you a solutions engineer. Sure. That credibility with, uh, another person. And here's the human element. Yup. Because it's in the sea of craziness, like in the sea of like everyone saying they do everything.

Here's one guy that didn't say that added a ton of value to me and save me a lot of heartache and time. And, and the trust

Taylor: him implicitly or her like, right. Or, cause he told me something that I didn't want to hear, but that I needed.

Abhi: And in the short term, you know what, uh, you know, I think, and I've seen this before, like, that might mean a sales rep per se, walking away from a deal.

Right. And saying a time like, that might mean, a vendor may or may not necessarily be able to save an account

Taylor: well, you know, this, if you have good leadership, which I'm part of a doctors, I know that firsthand. Like they understand that though. Um,

I have found that every time I've been in a situation where I could say no provided, like I've been given context prior to meeting with the client. Um, I have, I'm, I'm armed with, with internal knowledge about how to sell a solution is right. So if it's not on the fly and I know I have to basically say no, I try to offer a variations of that request that I can execute on.

And what I will say, anecdotally speaking, I don't have any data on me to back us up is usually I would say 75% of the time. So a lot of the time, the majority of the time, one of those solutions that I came up with, again, as a solutions engineer, that wasn't exactly what the customer wanted, but it'll fit a need or it'll fit.

Part of the mold tends to appease them and. That's important for a couple of reasons. One, it appeases them. It's going to do some of, if not, most of what they wanted. Right. Um, secondly, it shows that I'm trying, right. And, and from a person to person transaction. If we're just trading on like emotions, I'm signaling to my client, I didn't have exactly what you needed, but here are some options that could do what you needed to do in a certain capacity.

I want you to know that I'm, I am trying for you.

Abhi: And yeah. I mean, thank you for filling in that second part of the blank. Yes. For anyone listening, if you're new into, into, you know, client facing roles. Yeah. Don't, don't say no without context of I to say no

Taylor: without context. I mean, again, provide, provide the context, provide reasons why, if you can, um, but it does come down to, you know, again, sometimes you, you will have to say no. Um, and it's just all about like, how can you relay that to your client in a way that, you know, they either understand, or again, like we spoke about earlier, they're, they're impressed because what's his name? Jim, Jim Donovan from Goldman Sachs talks about this, um, when closing like corporate merger deals. Yup. If, um, you signaling to a client like, Hey, that thing that you want to do, that campaign you want to run, we can't do that. Here's the reasons why you're, you're signaling that trust or you're if it wasn't there before you're building that, because you just told a client who's going to pay you and make you money in your company money.

You just told them I can't take that money from you because my product can't do that thing. Right. Here's here's maybe who could do that for you? They, they, they go, wow, this guy or girl is so great that they were willing to say no to me, because that they know that the product can't facilitate this request.

But now I trust him or her even more because they were willing to be so honest with me and they weren't trying to short sell me. You know what I mean? Does that make sense?

Abhi: And the second part of that too, which is, I think so key to saying no, is that part of it's effort, right? It's a, Hey, I did effort.

Not, not to say, Hey, this is not my lane or this is not my product, but the second part of what you said there, which is so much of, Hey, I even just doing a little bit of research, tools like this or other vendors, like this may actually feed that my software that I represent. Doesn't yeah.

Taylor: And you can, again, you could, you could Google that in five minutes before a meeting starts, please say, oh, you know, I dunno like BI tools feel like a diamond doesn't sometimes I taught five BI tools that do blah, blah, blah.

Abhi: Um, but moving, moving along and now let's, let's keep out a little bit because you are, they, you said it you're, you're the programmatic guy.

Right. And I've always thought of you, uh, as you know, that's sort of, that's sort of always been a little bit of your baby, you know, something that even if you weren't directly working with something, you keep your eye on. Oh yeah. You know, so, okay. So I'll start with sort of a. Hopefully I'm not offending you or any, uh, Eddy, programmatic folks out there.

Look advertising just generally digital advertising. Like I, I pop over my phone. I'm getting blasted with display ads. Yeah. What it feels like any screen device, uh, you know, that I look at. And so I guess any advice on sort of how. Given that, there's such a limited attention and there's so much flying around how our brand, um, can build an ad program that drives results for the company.

Right. We still need to, I mean, advertising works, right. That's why, that's why we do it. But you're, you know, hitting those company goals without necessarily driving your ultimate end users. Crazy.

Taylor: Absolutely. Man, this is like, you know, well, this, this, this is a loaded question, right? Because like everyone's trying to solve this.

Right. Um, my take on this is actually kind of specific, um, because I have thought about this a lot and I, and I've seen it work and I've seen it not work. Um, right. I would hope so with, with the experiences I've had. So I think so I used to work very closely with audience data, you know that, um, so on-site behavioral data and.

You know, in conjunction with using like a basic site analytics suite tool, um, with like a partner, like, uh, you know, live ramp on to say, you know, um, I'm able to segment audiences and I'm able to take them places and run analysis on it. Um, and see, do they have a propensity to click a certain button or view a certain page in, in, in doing that for such a long time?

Um, you inherently think about the user journey, um, specifically as it relates to like an app or a website, but it could, I mean, it could be, you know, OTT content too. Um, it, it, it, again, leading off with programmatic here, like programmatics big thing when it like it's big tagline, like not too long ago and it's still kind of is, is like right time, right place.

Right. Message. Right. You know, right. User right, right. Site visitor. Right. And I still think that. Um, I don't think ethos is the right word, but like that methodology is still ringing quite true. And so, so I say all that, because like, if you, um, go to, you know, I don't know, I'm trying to use an example of a company I didn't work at, if you will go to like, you know, the exporting goods.com, cause you're looking to purchase, um, you know, new set of golf clubs and uh, you know, it's spring.

So like off season is coming up on ya. And if you get, you know, retargeted with. 30 ads for those same set of golf clubs, you know, on a never-ending basis for a week straight. That is a horrible consumer experience. Right. It's annoying. It's just flat out annoying. Right? Um, on the flip side, uh, I'm, I'm adopting a puppy.

Actually. I pick her up on the 22nd. I'm looking at thank you. I mean, I can tell you that to me. Yeah, man. Um, and I will be sure to send you pictures soon. Um, I'm shopping for pet insurance, right? And I was very, you know, I'll I'll name, drop him. I'll give him credit where it's due.

Lemonade is who I was doing. The pet insurance, like through shout out

Abhi: to lemonade, shout out

Taylor: to lemonade. It was a very, so it was a great process. I think, I think a Google search. Uh, pet insurance just classic. Right. Uh, I don't know if they were the first paid ad, but they were one of the results that I recognized and it was sure, like, they were definitely top five in the, in the, in the surf.

And I clicked on lemonade, you know, get a quote now. And I went through the entire process and they ask you, um, you know, they're gonna collect PII from you. Like, just know that you're gonna have to, there's a value exchange here. They're gonna give me a quote in exchange for my information, right. At the end, though, they asked for how old is the puppy or the pet that you're looking to purchase.

And I said eight weeks, which is like right around when you, when you take them home. And they said, hold on, we can't ensure, uh, if something that we can ensure puppies, like under 10 weeks, don't worry. We'll reach back out to you when the puppy is of that age. Because I think they asked for like the puppy's birth date.

What I love about this user experience though, is I said, okay, cool. So I exited. And I kept thinking to myself because I'm a marketer. Oh, they're going to nail me with email after email until I get jumped back in, they have not reached out to me yet, which is amazing. Here's a company who has respected the consumer me said, Hey, thank you for the information that you just provided.

We would love to give you a quote. We can't give you a quote until your puppy reaches X age. We'll talk to you in like I would've said like two weeks or three weeks. And I was like, that's amazing what that signals to me as the consumer is you respect my, my, my attention. He respect the fact that I'm already interested.

I made it to the end of the like lead quote cycle and submitted the button. I gave you all the information. You not bombarding me with daily or, or, or twice a day. Emails telling me about some weird, awkward 15% off coupon I could get from you is. Is is the end all be all for me. Like, so I guess when you getting at is you got to know your audience and I don't think that's news to anybody else.

Um, I I've worked heavily in the automotive space and that is extremely sensitive to a, a, um, automotive buyer's journey, right? Um, for baseline statistics, uh, it, it, a person who's purchasing a vehicle new or used doesn't really matter. Uh, for this example we'll typically purchase between, you know, one in 90 days, um, year over year, that can change from like one to 70 days or one to like 120 days.

But on average, the person who's in market for a vehicle will complete that purchase within a 90 day window frame. It doesn't make sense if someone submits a lead for a vehicle to smash them day over day, which a lot of online dealerships do day over day. Calling, calling, calling, emailing, emailing, emailing.

They got get, move the metal, right? Always be closing ABC. Right? Always be closing. I get that. The consumer, the me, the, you, anyone who's in market for a vehicle is going, they were so annoying to me. The consumer experience was so annoying. I out of spite, I don't want to go give them my business for sure.

On the flip side, right. Here's a positive example. When the pandemic hit, we met users where they were, they were at home, right? So when people were submitting leads online and they wanted to test drive cars and they wanted to inspect them in person, but they didn't want to go to the dealership. Right.

They want to do adhere to like safety regulations and guidelines. They would bring dealerships. Who, who, who, in my opinion, were intelligent, jumped on quickly. The train of we'll bring the car. We have home delivery. We can bring the car to you. You can test drive it. If you, if you love the car, we'll bring the paperwork to you.

You don't need, we can send it online if you want. Um, we're going to wrap the steering wheels. We're going to work gloves and we drive it to you that you met the consumer where they were, which was at that time, a place of apprehension and probably a lot of nervousness. Right. And that's what works. And I can tell you the, the, in this automotive example, the dealerships who didn't do that, who did not convert to offering online direct delivery or home delivery, or at home testing test driving are now trying to gain back market share that they otherwise would have had or capitalized on.

Had they been. Like met their consumers where they were. Um, so that's kinda what I'm getting at. Um, it's a basic principle, but execution year over year changes. And we as marketers need to be willing to like adhere to that change for our client's sake and for our consumer, like anyone who's consuming our material for their sake as well

Abhi: and tailor what I heard there, which has, um, I'm so glad you took it there in the end.

That final example, I think it really, really puts the cherry on top. Like I started the question, you know, with, with programmatic and just ads, but I think what you just told me, and I think this makes all the sense in the world. It's the takeaway here really is. You can't think about. You know, your, your social media ad program and your email marketing program, and then your personal onsite programs and your store program as these like silos.

Sure. Right? Because to your point about like, going back to that LeMay example, because they knew, right. Because they use that data point of this, guy's trying to insure a puppy and we can't help him yet. Yeah. But why bother him? Right. And that's, and that's not sending you the emails that's and it's a little, you know, and again, geeking out on like email that's that's one line in the campaign builder that says like don't target until is 10 weeks it's done.

Right? Like that's a single automation that you set up. Also the, the ad buyer, right? That's like going into your audiences and like a Facebook, like don't target users, right. Who's puppy is, is less than 10 weeks old. It, it wouldn't, or her start targeting them as it gets close to that age. So maybe they see a display ad.

And then remember to come back, if

Taylor: we're sticking with like the puppy pet insurance example, like, think about it from, I don't know if the buyer is necessarily thinking about this, but the buyer's manager is think about the lifetime value of a person who, who, who converts and buys pet insurance for the dog.

Right. It's insane. So would you not want to like tread lightly when there's such high LTV at stake? It, I could make the same comparison with cars, except now it's margin it's it's vehicle margin is product margin, right? The dealership's going to get some money, the sales person's going to get some money.

And then hopefully if you were a consumer, you negotiate it down a little bit. So there's, there's an exchange there. Right. And. There's a lot of potential for, for, um, a lot of value to be exchanged. Why would I want to disrupt that by annoying my, my customer. I mean, I, I'm going to be honest with you, man.

Like I don't think I've ever been, first of all, I have a horrible habit of buying vehicles, sight unseen. Don't do that. I have purchased one vehicle in my life at a dealership. And what I'm getting at here is. I didn't feel any pressure. I never felt rushed. Um, I felt like my needs for the vehicle I was purchasing as a truck were, were being addressed.

That made me feel better as a consumer handing over that value in this case money, right in exchange for this vehicle or in exchange for pet insurance, because I am being respected. It's no different than this is sounding way too existential now, but I'll, I'll end with this. This is no different than when someone cuts you off in line at a grocery store.

You're inherently upset about it and you might be mad. You might be sad, but you're upset about it. You're not upset because someone cut you off. You're upset because someone ignored you and that there's somebody ignored your physical presence. And that's what makes you upset. So think about it from an advertising.

If I honor you consumer person behind the screen holding the phone or the laptop, there's much more incentive for you to implore my humanity and say, you know what, Hey, thanks lemonade. I'll I'll wait, I'll wait. And, uh, you guys, you guys ping me when, when we're ready to go. Um, it's not like I'm not getting the puppy anymore.

Right. Um, or, or again, like, I'm trying to think of like, you know, mom and pop dealership, like, Hey, appreciate you reminding me that that vehicle is still on the lot and that you marked it down to grant. Thanks for not like calling you 10 times at work, you know, like, right, right. So there's a reciprocity here that, and, and, and again, programmatic was fascinating because it promised I'm looking at tying it back in programmatic.

If done well to meet you at the right time at the right place, yada, yada yada. Right. And I still believe in that fundamentally, um, which is why I think I still get so freaking jazzed about it. Um, so it, it makes my life easier as the consumer purchasing the product, it makes the person selling the products life easier, everybody wins.

Right.

Abhi: I mean, philosophically, that, that division of programmatic is absolutely spot on. I think what we're saying here is like in practice, Yes, take advantage of the fact that most people don't do this. Most people don't actually listen, they do blast you with 2015 loop and off coupons in three days.

 It may seem like in the short term, Hey, getting more emails out. Getting as many display ads out for your brand is, is helping. And you might even start, you might actually see like an influx of like clicks to your site and you know, more people, but long-term.

 How do you measure sort of the damage and how do you want to kind of put yourself out? And it goes back, I mean, tagging around to trust, like this is right building trust, even though you can't quite shake everyone's hand and have a conversation with them. And it's about listening.

Taylor: let me put the digital spin on the end of that philosophical question we're having here.

Like you, I hesitate to say this cause I don't want it. I don't want it to sound like I'm speaking down to people or like I'm gaslighting anyone, you, you need to have some tool to like curate audience insights with right. Bar. None. Like, like if you, if you don't have GA on your site, come on, man. Right girl.

Right. Or some analytics. But I have to say that I have to say that because. I have seen so many clients say, oh, we would love to know like what the top like pathways are on our site to conversion. You know, you could, who can give that to you? Like loosely is like going lives, man. I like

Abhi: it just like

you.

Taylor: My, my advice is you have to have some way of gauging audience metrics, whether that's engagement, audience insights, what do they look like in comparison to other audiences, even the third party data out there. So partner up with someone, grab a free tool. If you need to, like, while you, while you sort of prove this out and vet this out to your boss, you, you have to have some component of that.

Um, a lot of the DSPs today have. DNP functionality to them where they'll sort of derive automated audience insights for you use that, use that for now, until you can scale up, there is always a way to make the end users. Again, if we're talking from an app perspective or a mobile web perspective or a desktop, there's always a way to make that user's life easier.

And there are tools out there, many of which are free that you can use to start that journey with so that you are talking to the right audience at the right time, how you define the right audience. Definitely work with a site analytics team definitely work with a BI team. Right. If you don't have that again, there are steps you can take very cheaply that can at least get you pointed in the right direction.

Right. So I should say that, right? Like you, can't just, this isn't the sixties anymore where we're like all sitting around a boardroom smoking cigarettes and like defining personas that we think will buy an airline ticket that we have data. Now we can, we can, we can iterate on that day. Hundreds and hundreds of times, right.

We have machine learning models that can do that for us, like in no time. So take advantage of those tools that are out there. And, um, you know, if anyone has questions, they can, they can hit us both up.

Abhi: Yeah. Hey, listen. If you know, for those listing, right. We'll blast a, you know, make sure, uh, you know, I, I, uh, I write Taylor's address and, uh, yeah,

Taylor: no, now I sound like, I sound like I'm doing, um, oh gosh, why am I blanking?

I sound like I'm doing affiliate marketing. You sign up for this free tool through me. We both win.

Abhi: Oh man uh, last Taylor, we have gone. I mean, he's man, this is like, this is what we call a friendship. Right? When you get off of work, you know, it's six 30 in Chicago

we're still having a conversation . I'm going to let you go. Right. I bought Sherman and I put, these are rapid fire. So they're going to be five rapid fire.

Um, four of them are sort of like either or questions. Okay. Um, and then the final one is like, the hint is, I'm a big foodie, so I'll give you that hint. But, um,

Taylor: I hope I don't mess this up.

Abhi: No, no, no. There's no, there's no right or

Taylor: wrong answer. But

Abhi: first question, uh, pineapple on pizza. Yes or no.

Taylor: Yes. But only when it's like Hawaiian style pizza. Fair. Fair enough. Otherwise, otherwise, no, otherwise, no.

Abhi: Fair enough. Fair enough. Um, winter or summer sports.

Taylor: Sorry. I have to I'm in the Midwest. These winters are too long, man. Summer, anything over winter, summer sports.

Abhi: Love it. And, uh, yeah, no, no disagreements from me as somebody that's spent their whole existence and ancestral bloodline has been around the equator more or less, uh, LeBron or MJ,

Taylor: LeBron man dying.

People are going to be upset that I said that, man, LeBron real quick. I know these rapid fire while Michael Jordan is an absolute goat. LeBron I think is, is, is, is the star we all need. Uh, and he's just a good dude, man. He's just a good dude. I've heard things said that, Michael, Jordan's not really a nice guy.

LeBron's nice, man. You

Abhi: know, and listen, that's where I, you know, I didn't, it was LeBron or G. That was a question. And you were thinking in context.

Taylor: I was thinking,

Abhi: yeah, exactly. No, fair enough. Fair enough. Like that's a, you know, like I said, there's no wrong answers here. Uh, okay. Fro-yo or ice cream?

Taylor: Um, ice cream, man.

I mean, I'm from the Midwest dairy cows got to go with ice cream.

Abhi: Right, right, right. So, um, okay. Final question. I gotta ask, um, favorite restaurant in Chicago.

Taylor: Oh man.

Abhi: And we're going to go, like, as soon as this whole, you know, Omni, Cron, you know, um, listen, that's going to be next time. I'm in Chicago. We're going to go. So yeah,

Taylor: I, one restaurant in Chicago. Oh man. I had like a life-changing experience at this restaurant.

People either going to laugh at me or they're going to be like, oh, I know exactly what it needs. I was invited to a dinner for my buddy's birthday by his wife. I had never been here before. And I'll tell you the name. Yeah. But we have. W we balled out. We totally balled out, um, the best seafood of my life, the best steak of my life, the best brussel sprouts of my life.

Everything was the best of my life, right down to like the house Cabernet I drank. Wow. GT prime in river, north, um, fantastic seafood and steakhouse. Um, blew my mind. I was texting people. I was, I had to take the train home that night to, to, out to the birds where I live. I was texting anyone who had listened to me.

Like I just had the best dinner of my life at GT prime. We need to go, blah, blah, blah. Like it was. And some people can be like GT prime, Chicago cut is better. Whatever that night. With that group of people, it was an amazing time. I'm forever grateful for being invited to that dinner. Um, by his wife, it was awesome.

And we should go when you are in Chicago next man,

Abhi: GT prime, it's going to happen. That sounds

awesome. Amazing. Well, listen, man, I'm not going to keep you any longer. Uh, even Kenzo everyone. Um, you know, the myth, the man, the legend.

You heard it here first.

Taylor: Uh, thanks for having me, man. This has really been an amazing time. Uh, you're a fantastic or fantastic interviewer, uh, even better friend. Thank you for having me on, man. I really do appreciate it and hope maybe we can do.

Abhi: Awesome. Awesome. Yeah, definitely. You're definitely going to be back on a part two and three.

Cool man. Thanks so

Taylor: much for this. Do no problem.